You are in "interview room:1" (
Welcome to My Room )
xxxxxxx joined the room
BJ WOLF: Hello.
Biologist X: Hello, Ms. BJ?
BJ WOLF: Yes. Is this George?
Biologist X: Yes.
BJ WOLF: I was hoping to have someone else
in on our interview, but I can't find them online.
Biologist X: You sure host one bopping room.
Biologist X: [a smiley face was inserted here]
BJ WOLF: Hey, I try...... no dancing on the
tables is allowed, though.
Biologist X: I understand you wanted
to have another person present, but you have to understand
that my personal information, of which you mostly all
know, must be kept away from this. I have a life.
Biologist X: Would you like to call me back? To try to
get the other person.
BJ WOLF: I understand that. I protect my
sources. let me try to get him. We can talk in the
mean time if you'd like.
Biologist X: I have 12:05am so it should be 9pm there
where he is.
Biologist X: This will be the Bill you spoke about, right?
BJ WOLF: Yea, that's what I have too. Yes.
Bill has been very active in trying to get to the truth
about Dan's situation, the research and all that stuff.
Biologist X: Okay, well I know about
the case but am not much of a ufo follower. I am afraid
that my comments could only assist concerning some
of his background and perhaps some interpretation into
hsi work.
Biologist X: Someone moved the "s" and "i" keys
on my keyboard! "hsi"
BJ WOLF: That would be really helpful. Stand
by a second. I want to invite him again. He sent me
an email that he is online.
Biologist X: Fine.
BILL HAMILTON joined the room
BJ WOLF: Hi Bill. I'm glad you
could make it.
BJ WOLF: The snow is falling
like crazy up here.
BILL HAMILTON: It will be 80 deg here tomorrow
BJ WOLF: Oh yea, rub it in!!!
BJ WOLF: I'd like to introduce
you to George.
BILL HAMILTON: Oh No, not Knapp?
Biologist X: I take it that you don't like the cold, BJ.
Hello, Bill.
BILL HAMILTON: Hellop
BJ WOLF: No I really hate it.
Biologist X: Knapp? No. He is busy chasing lasers, or
is that Lazars?
BILL HAMILTON: Right, like your humor
Biologist X: I was inited by BJ here to try to come to
some sense of the work.
Biologist X: damned keyboard.
BJ WOLF: your letters jumping around on the
keypad?
BILL HAMILTON: go ahead
Biologist X: Yes, it's gremlins.
BJ WOLF: I was hoping that we could talk
a little about Dr. Burisch and
Biologist X: Well, that's interesting. Aah, what might
we be having trouble with?
BJ WOLF: the Ganesh particles.
Biologist X: He's a maverick, but makes sense.
BJ WOLF: Well, not everybody agrees about
the second part of that. There are a lot of people
who just don't
BJ WOLF: understand what its
all about.
BJ WOLF: Bill, I think you
tried to explain it to someone recently, and it was
very difficult.
Biologist X: Okay, I have been provided with a copy of
the so called Lotus Protocol and the 18 page document
posted on BJ's site. I have some concerns about the
protocols employed, but not because
BILL HAMILTON: I just used Dan's words. Made sense to
me.
BJ WOLF: I know. I think I have a pretty
good grasp of it too. But it's not easy to explain
what he is going after with these experiments.
Biologist X: they appear wacked out,
but because there appears to be multiple levels of
protocols being employed simultaneously.
BJ WOLF: What do you mean?
Biologist X: Throughout the work, this guy alludes to
other forms and "pursuant to other protocols." I
think we are dealing
Biologist X: with paperwork that was never meant to hit
the light of day. Certainly
Biologist X: no self respecting
peer-reviewed journal would publish it, under current
guidelines.
Biologist X: This doesn't mean that
it doesn't make sense though, although I wish it made
a little less sense as it is giving me some problems
with cell origins theory.
BJ WOLF: It seems to run afoul of current
evolutionary theory.
BILL HAMILTON: There seems to be controversy about cell
origins anyway.
Biologist X: His work appears to bear multiple logic
levels and interdisciplinary ability on the level I
figured he was bound, all those years ago.
BJ WOLF: How many years ago are we talking
about here.
BILL HAMILTON: I was recently taught the endosymbiosis
theory of eukaryotes
Biologist X: Well, not if you take his theory into account.
And I must say that...1987-1989 (end of year). Yes,
that figures into this prominently, but a change occurred
in his ideology.
BILL HAMILTON: I have been told that he has completed
his task that was due March 15th on Project Starflower
Biologist X: The Lotus Protocol was one of those papers
that seems predicated on a set of procedures not mentioned.
As I cannot independently confirm the existence of
the group that he is allegedly working with, I cannot
say for certain that such a set
BILL HAMILTON left the room
Biologist X: of protocols exists. However, if he does,
it seems reasonable that we are dealing with what I
have heard called upper-user reports. I am confused
where StarFlower begins and Lotus ends?
Biologist X: Is he tired of me?
Biologist X: Hello?
BJ WOLF: I've got no idea what
happened. I will try to get him back in. He might
have lost his connection completely.
BJ WOLF: Give me a second. OK
Biologist X: I will continue with the protocol issues.
So he can read them, okay?
BJ WOLF: Ok. I will try periodically
as we talk.
BJ WOLF: Where were we?
Biologist X: In the Lotus Protocol, he set out to establish
a longitudinal study to test the serial endosymbiotic
theory of eukaryote cell origins.
BJ WOLF: George, you mentioned a change of
ideology that took place with Dan back in 1987 or so.
That was when he was working on something about cells
in brackish water.....
Biologist X: It appears from his reports that soon after,
a series of events began taking place at his research
site, that swayed the procedures toward...well hold
on just a second...
Biologist X: When I knew him, we were both graduate students
taking what amounted to a structural biology course.
He shared very little with me about his research intentions
at that time. I will leave the institution out of this,
but safe to say we
Biologist X: were both trying to get the attention of
the prof, I'll put him to his initials WL, and roomed
near each other in the Schomburg area. We (or at least
I) were more concerned with getting ahead
Biologist X: He seemed to have the golden spoon with all
those people following him around.
Biologist X: Is the gentlemen coming back?
BJ WOLF: People following him around? Groupies?
Biologist X: Not groupies, suits.
BJ WOLF: Oh.
Biologist X: I also saw him with one naval person.
BJ WOLF: Hm, that would certainly tie in
with some of the stuff I have been shown over the years.
Biologist X: Whereever he went they weren't far behind.
He came and went from the campus so much it was somewhat
hard to get to know him.
BJ WOLF: So he didn't reside there like everybody
else did?
Biologist X: Any luck with Bill?
Biologist X: He stayed in the apartments, but left very
often.
BJ WOLF: No. nothing. I get the feeling he
was knocked offline.
Biologist X: He told me then that he was flying back and
forth to Las Vegas.
BJ WOLF: I have tried twice to invite him
back, and sent him an email.
Biologist X: Did I bore him or upset him?
BJ WOLF: The timing would would
be about right. I know the institution you're not
mentioning by name, and at that time I think he was
working in Vegas.
BJ WOLF: No, nothing like that.
I really think he lost his connection.
BJ WOLF: I just got an email
from Bill
BJ WOLF: he said he got knocked
off line and has not been able to get back into the
chatroom
BJ WOLF: He has asked me to
give him a summary tomorrow.
Biologist X: Okay. He more popped in to classes than spent
time there, but all the quiet word was that he was
doing everything everyone else was. Couldn't figure
it then, still can't, unless I opt for the conspiracy
theory.
Biologist X: Can you try to reattach him?
Biologist X: Print what we have and do another room?
BJ WOLF: I'll try again. Still
no luck.
BJ WOLF: Sorry, he's logged
off for the night.
Biologist X: I am sorry for that. Shall we continue?
BJ WOLF: We might as well. I'll print it
out for him tomorrow.
Biologist X: You know I can't make a habit of this.
BJ WOLF: Yes. I am really grateful for you
talking with me.
Biologist X: I was hoping to speak with him since he's
one of the lead people looking into the protocol.
Biologist X: Where shall we go?
BJ WOLF: Yes. What would you tell him if
he were still online.
Biologist X: Well, I have concern about the issue of controls
(or the lack thereof) being employed in this project,
just from what I have read, but
Biologist X: if the Ganesh Particle is confirmed, which
seems likely given the images on your site, then the
rest of the implications seem likely as well. Among
those implications is
Biologist X: the reason why controls aren't appropriate
at this stage. He states in his over-verbose style,
that the particles and so called cross bridges are
very delicate, and that this entire phenomenon is unique
to the biological sciences.
BJ WOLF: I think that practically everybody
I end up talking to knows more about biology than I
do. I took the photos off the videotape, but I can't
interpret them worth a damn. I don't even know why
they look like they do. I have some photos of crossbridges
Biologist X: What control would a person use?
BJ WOLF: too, but I don't exactly know how
to describe what is on the screen.
Biologist X: Hold on for a moment, I will return shortly.
BJ WOLF: Controls, for a particle
with totally unknown and unexpected
BJ WOLF: properties. How do
you design an experimental protocol much less anticipate
it's behavior in order to
BJ WOLF: design controls?
Biologist X: If the thing behaved as we expect biological
systems to behave, then employ the formal experimental
methods and use controls. This design, appears to be
quasi-scientific, on the surface, but I am not sure
what else is being done in other reports and in other
venues.
BJ WOLF: The cross bridges are supposed to
be really fragile too. So fragile that they just break
apart if the experiment is jarred. But even so, they
manage to repair damaged cells nearby, and even masquerade
as other cells enroute to the target cells. How does
anyone design controls for something like that?
Biologist X: I understand, from the reports, that the
process works like this:
Biologist X: 1. A minute electrical charge is applied
to quartz, the form exactly I do not know.
Biologist X: 2. An electromagnetic opening is engendered
to the crystal forms, resulting in an opening to whereever
else.
Biologist X: 4. These branches find a particular cell,
for whatever reason.
Biologist X: 5. This event is followed by the exit of
a larger electromagnetic particle from the same opening.
Biologist X: 6. The larger particle is what he called
the ganesh particle.
Biologist X: 7. The ganesh particle follows one of the
paths of the river to a particular cell.
Biologist X: 8. During its "swim" to the cell,
the ganesh particle undergoes some kind of maturing
process.
Biologist X: 9. During that maturing process, the ganesh
particle's volume increases from approximately 0.5micro.m.
to 5.0micro.m.. His report stated that
Biologist X: Are you following me?
BJ WOLF: Yes. I am just staying quiet until
you are done.
Biologist X: The sizes are diameters, 0.5 and 5.0. I should
have stated that.
Biologist X: 10. This entire maturing process takes about
27 minutes.
BJ WOLF: I have a question
BJ WOLF: From your interpretation
of the material, do you see the Ganesh particle as
moving through these crossbridges like a subway train
in a tunnle, and growing bigger as it goes.
BJ WOLF: Or does the Ganesh
particle become a crossbridge?
Biologist X: No. I am getting there,
for give me, I am older and slower. 11. Once the matured
particle arrives at the cell, it attaches to it, but
not before deploying some kind of device that comes
from an operculum,
Biologist X: a flower-like opening.
A tube-like structure is deployed as the particle comes
to rest on the cell wall of the algae strand.
Biologist X: 12. This device bores into the algae strand.
Biologist X: 13. The particle then
cements itself to the cell wall, all the while the
drilling device is headed for a nucleus.
Biologist X: 14. At the same time (or closely thereafter)
the drilling device hits the nucleus, the particle
begins changing.
Biologist X: 15. The single particle, like a seed, begins
to germinate.
Biologist X: Now is where my interp gets difficult.
BJ WOLF: OK.
Biologist X: 16. Multiple cell forms
appear, but only of two types: (1) true eukaryote-like
cells that form the cross bridges parenchyma (of which
there are subtypes--- those stopped at varying stages
of the cell cycle) and (2) support cells that look
like semi-rigid balloons.
Biologist X: 17. So the particle is no more, but now we
have cells. The last image in your site's presentation
BJ WOLF: That helps me make some sense of
it. Those last images were so different from the first
ones I was really confused. But there they were on
the videotape.
Biologist X: shows what appears to be segregation, almost
like a pseudo-tissue.
BJ WOLF: Yes. It looked heavily textured,
and seemed to have internal structures
Biologist X: The drilling device (called by him the Shiva
Linga) appears defined thoughout this growing mass
of cells, somewhat like (and I hate to use this analogy)
the snake used to open a toilet drain.
BJ WOLF: Oh that's vivid
BJ WOLF: What's it's drilling for?
Biologist X: The drill is on the front, in this case,
and it has multiple branches that tun backward through
the cross bridge cells 'parenchyma'.
Biologist X: I'll get there.
BJ WOLF: Sorry...
Biologist X: 18. Once the cross bridge is large, full
of cells, and extended (with the support cells), the
drilling device finds its way (and I am not sure of
the growth dynamics) to the open end of the cross bridge.
The drilling device then attaches the open end of the
crossbridge to another algae strand.
Biologist X: 19. He theorized that both cells needed help,
that they had occurred to them some kind of environmental
damage, and that this would ameliorate the damage.
This was done as he said he evidenced the cells recuperation.
(if that is an appropriate term??) He also theorized
that the cells which were stopped at various
Biologist X: stages in their cycles acted as a library
for the damaged cells to recognize (biochemically)
what would be necessary to repair themselves, and that
perhaps the cross bridge cells added the right biochemical
components to facilitate that help.
Biologist X: 20. After the cross bridge did its job, it
became weak and died off.
Biologist X: This is what I have pieced together from
his reports.
BJ WOLF: That's quite an assessment.
Biologist X: Not really. I just followed his report and
jotted down the salient directions.
BJ WOLF: I have not been able to follow your
explanation completely, but that's no surprise since
my academic background is not science.
Biologist X: What is the problem? Let's clear it here
because, as you say, many have had a problem with this,
and I am trying to help.
BJ WOLF: Do the crossbridge cells - are they
generated from the Ganesh particle? Do they just appear
out of nowhere?
Biologist X: It appears he is saying that the Ganesh particle
is a seed, that germinates, and forms the cells of
the cross bridges.
BJ WOLF: He told me, once, some time ago
that he thought the crossbridge cells were like a tubular
combination lock.
Biologist X: Is there a preexisting cell in the particle,
I can't say from his research.
Biologist X: He may have been referring to the drilling
device, and its tube that extends through the cross
bridge.
Biologist X: His dissertation on the Shiva Linga as he
calls it, goes that way.
BJ WOLF: Possibly. So that tube isn't a crossbridge.
It's inside a crossbridge? Also, you indicated that
there were cells that had been stopped at various stages
n their cycles. Were these also ganesh particles or
algae, or something else.
BJ WOLF: Also, can this miraculous ballet
take place in any kind of environment? Does the environment
have to be fluid?
Biologist X: As his writing goes, the cells that are stopped
at various stages are the cross bridge cells that had
been germinated from the ganesh particle. The tube,
having come out of the ganesh particle befaore it germinated
into many cells, winds its way through and between
cross bridge cells, when the cross bridge is mature
and attached to a second alage strand.
Biologist X: damned keyboard.
BJ WOLF: I
am probably being unfair to you, since you are just
interpreting his writings.
Biologist X: I am doing my best. You know I tried to replicate
the Ganesh particles?
BJ WOLF: You did?
BJ WOLF: Any luck?
Biologist X: Yes. You wanna know what I got?
BJ WOLF: sure.....
Biologist X: Ganesh Particles.
Biologist X: They dissipated once I tried to filter them.
Biologist X: Then I tried using SEM.
Biologist X: No good.
BJ WOLF: Are you kidding? so
the experiment can yield results for pretty much
anybody who tries to reproduce the results? Presuming,
of course they know what they are doing.
BJ WOLF: Why didn't the SEM work?
Biologist X: It seems that way. I have ceased the replication
attempts though.
BJ WOLF: It seems to be a better way than
light microscopes, given how small these things are.
Biologist X: The vacuum is a possibility. Or maybe the
bombardment. They never formed as best I could tell.
I ahve decided
Biologist X: damned keyboard...or is it my fingers?
Biologist X: to stop out of concern for their potential.
BJ WOLF: I am making alot of type0s today
too. Why do you think 'they' are pressuring Dan into
working so hard on this Ganesh stuff?
Biologist X: I am trying to find them in a natural setting.
BJ WOLF: I know you sort of laughed off the
'conspiracy' aspect to this, but you saw them following
him at university. the "not" groupies.
Biologist X: I can't say. I don't know. His warnings about
what he calls the "conjoined Lotus" is of
special concern. The headlines are everywhere about
Biologist X: putting together artificial organisms. The
implications for grabbing this and harnessing it are
frightening at best.
Biologist X: The talk about a prototype is interesti in
a frightening way.
Biologist X: Now that what the damned keyboard!
BJ WOLF: You know, I don't mean to be flippant,
but I can see people trying to do this themselves.
With no training or skill sets in biology. Just hooking
up a battery to some crystal, and hoping for a miracle.
Biologist X: They do that anyway.
Biologist X: If he is right, this is going on all around
us. Unseen by our eyes, unknown to our senses.
BJ WOLF: And all those people at Caltech
looking for data on the Ganesh particle - you mean,
it's been there all along?
Biologist X: The only evidence I have is scattered and
mostly from your site. According to what he wrote,
yes.
Biologist X: Caltech?
BJ WOLF: I am trying my best
to get as much out to the public as I can. Yes, the
figures for October
BJ WOLF: in the top 10 of Electronic
Thesis and Dissertation archive online searches put
the ganesh particle at #8.
BJ WOLF: Don't they have something
to do with JPL?
Biologist X: Some student still have open minds. But you
know the reality is that if my name gets out to the
public my career is shattered. Forgive the expression
but just talking with you folks like this is enough
to end my job.
Biologist X: damned keyboard.
Biologist X: Caltech is the host for JPL I believe.
BJ WOLF: I know you are taking an awful risk
talking to me.
Biologist X: Oh, it just hit me, JPL and Mars.
BJ WOLF: Yes. there is quite a connection
brewing.
Biologist X: Have I been of help to you this evening?
BJ WOLF: Yes, very much. I know you can't
talk too much longer.
Biologist X: No I can't. I am sorry for Bill missing
the interplay.
BJ WOLF: Me too. He would have added a lot
to the discussion. I will get this over to him first
thing tomorrow.
Biologist X: Let me ask you something- do you think he
is dead?
BJ WOLF: Honestly, I did up
until a little while ago. I thought all those people
who were so optimistic were
BJ WOLF: just engaging in wishfull
thinking. But some things have happened lately that
make me wonder. So, I just don't know anymore.
Biologist X: May I ask what things? I do so hope for him.
BJ WOLF: I wish I could say,
but I don't want to take the chance right now.
BJ WOLF: I am hopeful though.
Biologist X: I respect that. Can I ask what was this
thing about Geroge Knapp at the beginning? You said
he had some dealings with him in the past...
Biologist X: that time it was me not the keyboard.
BJ WOLF: Yes, when I first got to know Dan
he told me some horrendous stories about George Knapp
hounding him, trying to get him to talk about his associations
with the military or government. George was always
trying to dig up information about Area-51 and saw
Dan as his ticket to fame in that regard.
Biologist X: I thought he had the Lazar case?
BJ WOLF: Anyway, things got
really heated, and George backed off. He seemed to
back completely away from anything to do with the
Area.
BJ WOLF: Yes, he was instrumental
in the Lasar Case. In fact,
BJ WOLF: I had a meeting with
John Lear a few months ago
Biologist X: THE John Lear?
BJ WOLF: and that was where
George set up the cameras when he organized the meeting
and interviews
BJ WOLF: yes, The John Lear.
Bill introduced us. We sat in John's study at his
home up on the slope of Sunrise Mtn in Las Vegas
BJ WOLF: and talked for quite
a while.
Biologist X: Why did Bill say, Oh, No, not George Knapp?
Has he been hounding him too?
BJ WOLF: Bill has every reason
to be leary of talking to George Knapp, Just from
my own experiences with the guy I don't think he
ever had an open mind about the situation Dan was
going through.
BJ WOLF: I talked to George
Knapp at least twice in person in Vegas. We talked
for about an hour each time, concerning Dan. And
each time I got the feeling that he had already made
up his mind before I ever started talking to him.
I felt like I was wasting my time.
Biologist X: Why not, although he was one of the most
difficult people in the whole world to get along with,
he was (and I hope IS) a straight shot.
BJ WOLF: That's
it exactly! Nobody knows how to deal with a person
like that.
Biologist X: I mean this guy is a real pain.
Biologist X: Smart though.
BJ WOLF: Ok, now I believe you - you really
did know Dan personally!
Biologist X: Yup I do!
Biologist X: One thought equals six ideas with him!
Biologist X: Since I am telling it straight at you I will
say this:
BJ WOLF: Yes. He's almost impossible for
people to talk to without tearing out their hair at
some point or another.
Biologist X: and I have to sign off after this...
BJ WOLF: Ok, go ahead.
Biologist X: Although I don't know personally what he
was really involved with, he was the most likely to
be involved with something this strange. He had a cockeyed
way of looking at things (I hate this! I don't know
whether to use present
Biologist X: or past tense!!!).
Biologist X: and that way usually penetrated deeper than
others. Where is penetrated to is the worry.
Biologist X: I really have to go.
BJ WOLF: I understand.
Biologist X: Good night.
Biologist X: [smiley was inserted
here]
BJ WOLF: Thank you for
taking the time to talk. Take care.
xxxxxxx left the room
